A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life,
wrote a blank check made payable to ‘The United States of America’
for an amount of ‘up to and including my life.’
That is Honor, and there are way too many people
in this country who no longer understand it.’
Oct 26 2008
October 26th, 2008 8:52 pm
John McCain wrote that check and had it cashed for almost the full amount.
Barack Obama found someone else to write the check, then he cashed it with a forged signature, took the money and “spread the wealth” with some of his buddies (William Ayers, et al….) Oh, and he tithed 10% to Jeremiah Wright’s church!
Look up the word “honor” in the dictionary. I promise you won’t see Obama’s picture there.
October 27th, 2008 3:14 pm
Does something there strike you as a bit off? Christians shouldn’t be ‘writing blank checks’ like that to the United States, but to God. Or am I mistaken?
October 27th, 2008 3:57 pm
Hello Hello,
This post is aimed at the (I hope) large majority who honor those who protect us with THEIR lives, instead of drawing the line at actually fighting evil.
October 28th, 2008 10:25 am
I don’t think you really addressed my question though…but I will grant you that fro those who are not Christians, the United States is probably as good a thing to die for as any…
October 28th, 2008 11:05 am
Ah, at last it rears its ugly head: the pacifist who thinks he is the “real” Christian, while the rest of us are fakes.
October 28th, 2008 5:21 pm
amuzikman,
I loved your comment and posted a portion of it on my site. I hope that is okay.
October 29th, 2008 10:42 am
I said, “Christians shouldn’t be ‘writing blank checks’ like that to the United States, but to God.”. Do you disagree? Why do you think I meant that you’re a fake Christian by that?
Do you want me to think that? Because I do no think it at all, and while I know you haven’t believed a lot of what I’ve said, I hope you’ll at least believe me now.
October 29th, 2008 10:59 am
Hello Hello,
Both the comment you quote and this:””for those who are not Christians, the United States is probably as good a thing to die for as any”, seem to imply that you denigrate the Christianity of those who fight for their country.
Jesus “greater love has no man” comment has relevance here. You seem to interpret that as fruitlessly ineffective sacrifice that stops short of effectively fighting evil directly. I don’t.
A great many soldiers, being firmly in touch with their own mortality, are fervent Christians. Many of them work at building a school one day, providing medical care and protection the next day, and shooting the bad guys the next day, and see all of this as a form of necessary Christian service. In taking their oath to the US Constitution, they believe that document itself, and the Republic that is founded on it, is uniquely a better reflection of God’s view of humanity than any other governmental system, past or present. I include ancient Israel, for which even God was skeptical about the idea of the people having a King.
So, simple question: DO you consider Christian soldiers who do their best to behave morally, see their work as Christian service (which perspective all Christians are to have about their work), and do not abuse their power to be as good a Christian as yourself?
If your answer is an unqualified yes, I withdraw my comment.
October 29th, 2008 1:28 pm
My answer to your question is absolutely. I don’t feel like I’m a great Christian myself, I’m just doing my best, just as I know you and every soldier who believes in Christ are doing their best as well. So while I would still question whether or not Christians in the military could make better decisions concerning their actions, I do not think they are bad or insincere Christians. I have a friend in the marines, one in the coast guard, and one in the navy and while I am not crazy about their choices, they’re still my friends and I don’t think any less of their faith because of it.
I hope it’s come through in my posts, but I believe that my “pacifist” views deal with real, flesh and blood people and scenarios, not just hypotheticals.
“In taking their oath to the US Constitution, they believe that document itself, and the Republic that is founded on it, is uniquely a better reflection of God’s view of humanity than any other governmental system, past or present. I include ancient Israel, for which even God was skeptical about the idea of the people having a King.”
I agree with you that the US constitution is probably the best and most successful governing document that the world has seen, but I STILL question whether it is worth dying for. You are right that God was not crazy about Israel having a king (he didn’t want them to have one), but the Dueteronomic law was intended to be their law and God himsmelf was intended to be their ruler. Why do we suppose that God intends anything less for us now? Sure, we call our king a “president” now, but it’s still all very similar.
Read I Samuel 8:10-20. Things haven’t changed much, because that is the nature of human governemnts (though I’ll admit that I’m not too concerned about my daughters being taken to become perfumers…different time, I guess).
October 29th, 2008 2:07 pm
I am not so sure that laying your life down for a friend is the same thing as laying down your life for a nation.
The issue isn’t about some silly pissing match about who is the better Christian.
The issue is what is our allegiance?
I do not believe that we, as Christians, SHOULD swear our allegiance to the US Constitution or the Republic. While I have issues with the violence that the military perpetuates, I also have MAJOR issues with swearing an oath to something other than God.
October 29th, 2008 6:22 pm
Don’t confuse who you worship with the parties to whom you promise allegiance. If you marry, you promise allegiance to your spouse, but you don’t worship him or her. If you have children, you had better have allegiance to them, although there is no formal ceremony to declare it, unless you count 2 AM feedings. If you have a wider family, you have allegiance to them (I hope) including a certain determination to do all you can to promote their welfare and protect them.
If you live in a town or village, I hope you feel some sort of commitment to its welfare.
Commitment to national welfare is no different, and being willing to fight for that welfare, including putting your life on the line, is not fundamentally different in character from jumping into a moving river to save the life of a stranger.
An oath is just a promise of loyalty. If you can’t make one, better not marry, or ever be responsible for anyone else or to anyone else in any capacity.
October 29th, 2008 7:36 pm
You are right that we all have allegiances. But I would argue that there is a Biblical mandate for our allegiances to our spouse or children.
The same cannot be said about an allegiance to a country.
October 29th, 2008 11:21 pm
Do you have any allegiance to your neighbors? Particularly if they feel they have some allegiance to you?
October 30th, 2008 4:32 am
Perhaps… but I most definitely don’t pledge allegiance to them or take an oath to them.
You surely don’t think that have some kind of allegiance to a neighbor is the same was taking an oath and pledging allegiance to the Constitution and Country, do you?
October 30th, 2008 7:29 am
Dave, what do you think about “swearing in” ceremonies for law enforcement officers?
“Taking an oath to tell the truth” as a witness in court?
Signing a contract and getting it notarized, where you essentially take an oath to honor an agreement, pretty much no matter what?
October 30th, 2008 7:29 am
I mention these because, historically, radical pacifists in some Christian traditions have refused to do all of these things, on the same grounds that you give for not pledging allegiance to the USA and Constitution in entering military service.
Are you clear that pledging allegiance to the constitution is actually an HONORABLE thing, because you do NOT promise to follow all orders, it is not “my country right or wrong”, but rather you promise to obey only LAWFUL orders, and your commitment is to the ideals set forth in the constitution…. It isn’t the same thing as swearing allegiance to “God and King”, in the USA, but rather an acknowledgement of commonly shared values as expressed in the Constitution.
October 30th, 2008 12:04 pm
so did y’all read I Sam. yet? What’d you think?
October 30th, 2008 12:09 pm
Irrelevant to the discussion. We have a government. We have a nation. That won’t change. The point is what we do about it, and how we relate to it, and what we expect OF it, and how we try to limit its negative tendencies.
October 30th, 2008 2:24 pm
“Irrelevant to the discussion.”
I’m really sorry you feel that way. I think the point is that if God’s people are clamoring for a government, they are destined to fail. So where is our trust? Our trust should be in God, not in human-created governments.
October 30th, 2008 2:39 pm
Hello Hello,
I live in the real world. What do you have in mind, dissolving the USA?
I just have no idea what you’re proposing as a way forward.
October 30th, 2008 5:42 pm
I am proposing that we remember that as the church, we are PRIMARILY living in the Kingdom of God, not teh kingdoms of this world (America). So no, we (Christians) don’t have to dissolve the USA, we need to realize that it’s not by any means our primary “country”. Our primary citizenship is in God’s Kingdom, which does not observe the boundaries of our own contruction (empires, countries, etc.). So while I still recognize that I live in a country (USA) and understand that the world operates in those terms, I know that it is not my primary way of thinking about the world. I want to primarily think about the world in God’s terms, not he world’s. Call it unrealistic or out of touch with reality, but i would submit that it is biblical and in keeping with Jesus’ teachings.
October 30th, 2008 6:18 pm
Hello Hello, you are describing essentially interior events in a person, understandings, realizations, beliefs, whatever. But all of what you wrote is capable of being interpreted in about a thousand different ways.
So: how does this apply to the point at hand?
Are you suggesting that Christians don’t make promises and carry them out? That we have no responsibility to the structures of society? Careful here. The Bible makes it very clear that we DO, unless you are some kind of dispensationalist and think that the entire Old Testament is now moot. And even the NT discusses the claims society has on us.
So how does your notion of boundary-less Christianity work out in practical terms?
October 31st, 2008 6:58 am
I honestly do not know what is said in a “swearing in” ceremony of law enforcement, so I cannot really answer it.
Taking an oath is not the same thing as pledging allegiance to something.
I am well aware of historical pacifism.
Except that is not where my commitment, or my allegiance, lies. My commitment is not and will not be to the ideals of the constitution. My commitment is to the ideals in the Bible.
No… not at all. But the promises should not be made to the Republic or to the Constitution or to the Flag.
Easily… our commitment and allegiance is to God and the Church, not a country or a flag. I cannot and will not “write a blank check” for this country. I can and will do so for God.
October 31st, 2008 7:36 am
Dave: we don’t make promises “to the Flag” or “to the Constitution”, we make promises to PEOPLE, a whole nation-full of them, that we will abide by the ideals set forth in the Constitution, and protect those ideals.
Law enforcement swearing in is very similar to military. Don’t have exact wording in every state. Federal law enforcement is VERY similar, on the points under discussion.
Where there is a conflict between our commitment to God, and our commitment to country, of course the former rules. That’s why we only promise to follow LAWFUL orders, and we have the good fortune of living under a Constitution that, by and large, has rules for what is lawful that do not directly conflict with God’s laws.
I would not swear myself in to the Army of France. It’s official commitements, in some areas, are simply evil on their face. The USA’s could become so, in which case I’d have real problems…
October 31st, 2008 8:09 am
Now, to highlight some difficulties, which I recognize:
Current law places prohibitions on how close abortion protesters can get to clinics. There are some aggressively pro-choice police commanders around, and I am aware of many instances of police brutality in dealing with protesters, unnecessary violence in arresting non-violent protesters, etc. If I was a police office, and was given the order to use particularly violent techniques in arresting protesters who were breaking the law, I would have to turn it down, even at the risk of being disciplined, losing my job, etc.
October 31st, 2008 8:13 am
But these kinds of problems are not fundamentally different from those faced by public school teachers, who, it appears, will be forced to teach things which they consider to be morally wrong, if Prop 8 does not pass. That is, we all live here, like it or not. Unless we withdraw completely from society, we will at some point have conflicting commitments, and at that point must honor God’s above society’s.
“Pledging allegiance to the flag or the constitution” or swearing in ceremonies, etc., are not fundamentally different from any commitment we make to any earthly institution, which has not, in US history, been understood as meaning that one has given one’s conscience over to the state or any other entity. Having said that, a pacifist should probably not enter the armed forces, knowing that he would not be able to fight.
October 31st, 2008 10:33 am
And my point is that I am not, and I believe Christians should not, be interested in promising to the “PEOPLE” of the United States to abide by the ideals of the Constitution. Are role should not be to follow the Constitution, or the ideals held within. Our primary (and I would argue only) role is to pursue the Kingdom of God.
Sure… and we, as Christians, need to decide how to deal with those commitments. I do not believe that we should deal with those conflicts by pledging allegiance to a flag or a country.
Probably?
October 31st, 2008 10:36 am
The armed forces have allowed pacifists before to do non-combatant jobs, medical, chaplaincy, etc.
October 31st, 2008 10:39 am
Dave, feel free to drop out of society and make no promises to anyone, or any group of people. But you benefit, enormously, from those who DO.
October 31st, 2008 10:43 am
Yes… I am aware. But I do not see how a pacifist can participate in military efforts (and they clearly would be, even if they are not in combat).
Yea… because that is exactly what I said. You got me.